So there is a guy – and rest assured, I know it’s a guy, because only a guy would get this bent out of shape about this – who has commented on a previous post I made. And it wasn’t just a “hey, no” comment. It was a line by line dissection on how I was wrong and ought to feel bad.
Bad news, curiosetta. I am calling you out.
What follows under the cut is me dishing back to curiosetta what he can’t or won’t stand on his own blog. See, he either doesn’t have one, or he deleted it, which tells me he doesn’t have the stones to put his own opinions somewhere public where they can be critiqued and picked apart, the way he’s done to me.
As he has done, twice now, I’m going to take his comment point by point and break it down. You have been warned.
EDITED because while I don’t think an opinion blog should be held to the same standards as a peer reviewed academic journal re: sources and citing, I’d hate for you (or anyone) to feel like the lack of sources in this rebuttal is an opening for more “discussion”. I have refuted each and every fallacious point you attempted to make, and with this edit, I have done it AND cited the sources you demanded (despite offering none of your own). You are done.
‘Women’ are not a homogenous group, just as men aren’t.
First of all, I’m well aware of this fact. Had you taken the time to read the rest of the posts that went up in the last couple of days, you’d know that, because one of those posts is about this exact thing: ~METONYMY~ and how it’s a thing, a real thing, and the only reason to point out my lumping men into a “homogenous group” is to derail my post… which I’m not going to let you do. The rest of what you said in that paragraph was just a lot of “#notallmen #notallmen” bleating, and I’ve tuned that out because, as I said, I addressed that particular fallacy in a previous post. But we’ll keep going…
Some white people are uncomfortable walking around a predominantly black neighbourhood.
I don’t care if white people are “uncomfortable” walking around a predominantly black neighborhood, because guess what? Most black people are terrified, because the whole world they’re walking around in is a “predominantly white” space and white people dressed up as police officers are murdering them in cold blood. That’s right, I said it. White people are the dominant, privileged group in this society whether you choose to acknowledge it or not. I’m white. I acknowledge it. I acknowledge that in the scheme of things, any “uncomfortable” feeling I might feel walking around a “predominantly black neighborhood” has more to do with my perception of them as a threat – a perception that was spoon fed to me by this predominantly white society, mind you, and a perception that I’m actively working to shed – and barely anything to do with any real threat. Black people aren’t a threat. Not the way white people are.
A large part of white fear of black people stems simply from the fact that white people are terrified black people are going to rise up and treat white people, the way those white people have treated them. That’s very telling. If white people knew they were treating black people right, they wouldn’t need to fear this.
It’s pretty similar to the fact that there’s huge backlash against the feminism movement, largely from men who hate the thought that women might rise up and treat men the way men have been treating women for centuries – as second class citizens. As chattel. As property. As the butts of the never ending joke about female inferiority. Good thing that’s not actually what feminism is about, isn’t it.
Would you support a ‘white shopper’s hour’ in a shopping mall in multicultural area, so that white people to shop without the fear of black people being around? Or how about a shopping mall just for white people? See my point?
No, I wouldn’t, because your point is fallacious. Here’s why: It’s literally the opposite of an analogy. Because I’m talking about women (#yesallwomen) as the oppressed group in society wanting/needing a space away from the group who is actively oppressing them (that’s men. But #notallmen). Remember metonymy? That’s the last time I’m going to qualify myself because I know you understand what I’m saying. Please stop being deliberately obtuse in an attempt to derail me.
Women wanting to remove themselves from the places men are, and build a place of their own, is not analogous with the idea of white people wanting to remove themselves from the place black people are, and build spaces of their own. White people are not oppressed. Now, if we’re talking about people of color wanting to make a space for themselves away from all the racist oppression white people dump on them – I am totally here for that. (Except for the part where, because I’m white, I’d check my privilege and keep out of it.)
It’s interesting how you feel no need to actually support this claim with facts.
This is a blog. Not a peer-reviewed academic journal. When I’m writing for one of those, I’ll be sure and cite my sources. While I’m just putting my opinion out into the world on my own blog, I’ll write what I like. No one asked you to read it.
With that said, as I mentioned in the edit before the cut, I’m going to riddle this post with sources anyway, because I would hate for you to think that my god given right to say what I like on my own blog without a ten page research paper to back it up makes my points any less valid.
And hey!! Why don’t we talk about the part where you don’t even have the courage to have your own opinions as readily available as mine? Is it that you can dish out all kind of criticism, but you can’t take it coming back your way?
And you also treat all men as part of one group. Individual men can be appalling –
just as individual women can.
But the ‘appalling’ behaviour of one or two individuals of the group ‘men’ should not reflect on the group as a whole.
Except that it’s not one or two, is it? Because if it were one or two, out of the approximately four billion men on the planet, we wouldn’t be having this discussion. We would have found those two bad guys and set them adrift in the Atlantic with makeshift rafts and volley balls for company. It’s not one or two. It’s literally thousands upon thousands of men who at one end of the terrible spectrum might just make misogynistic jokes or catcall in the street. There are those who are emotionally abusive, which is a whole deal all on its own without them ever needing to raise a fist in anger. At the other end they’re raping and assaulting. If you’ve really got a problem with that, then don’t tell me. I’m one of the ones wearing what they deal out. If you’ve really got a problem with it then go and clean up your trash.
Furthermore, you could be the nicest guy on the planet, and it still wouldn’t matter: you can only speak for yourself. My point about the disproportionate amount of bad guys out there stands, and it isn’t going away. Sure, #notallmen. But #enoughmen that I’m scared. #enoughmen that I am expected to protect myself when I walk alone at night. #enoughmen that if (god forbid) I should be assaulted or raped in my lifetime (and there’s something like a one in four chance I, or someone I know, will be), people like you are going to pop up out of the woodwork and pick my life apart, trying to find the exact point where I could have prevented my own rape/assault.
So no, maybe the appalling behavior of a subset of your group shouldn’t reflect on the whole. But if you’re mad that it does, do something about it, instead of whining at the people who are afraid for their safety because of the toxic, cancerous, trash members of your demographic.
But perhaps some women just like to exercise around women only for reasons OTHER than it being all men’s fault.
Maybe they do. But I’m not talking about that. Stop derailing my post.
Are women’s toilets and women’s changing rooms men’s fault too?
Be careful not to let that straw man too near any heat sources. He’ll flare right up.
You keep defining men as single group who treat women appallingly without any evidence to back up this claim. Is that fair to men, or is it an appalling way to treat men?
Every time someone bleats #notallmen #notallmen #notallmen, a baby feminist angel gets her wings. I’m one person, and the group I belong to in society doesn’t have the societal power to oppress anyone, least of all you. Your entire comment reeked of unchecked white and male privilege. I’m happy to receive valid, constructive criticism about the things that I write, but I am not here for mansplaining and white male tears. I get enough of that in my real life.
If a white person feels uncomfortable around black people (or vice versa), is it automatically the black people’s fault?
No. In the first instance, it’s the white person’s fault for being a racist pile of trash. Re: above. In the second instance, it’s incredibly justified, and still the white person’s fault. Perhaps black people might not feel so scared of white people if white people stopped killing them all the time. See above for related links.
So not only are men guilty of acting appallingly towards women, they are also guilty of not being held accountable for this alleged crime.
Yup, that’s what I said.
On balance, women are held much less accountable than men when it comes to inappropriate touching and even violence. A woman who touches a man inappropriately, makes a sexual remark, or even slaps a man in the face is far LESS likely to be held to account than a man treating a woman that way.
You know what? I’m going to give you this one. But not because of the reasons you think. This once again goes back to the patriarchy and something called “toxic masculinity” which, to boil it down completely, is about the idea that being feminine is bad, so to be “masculine” means eschewing everything associated with femininity. It’s not enough to just “not be a girl”, toxic masculinity dictates that you have to hate/be disgusted by the thought of doing something “girly”.
Sure, that’s an overly simplified and exaggerated for effect version of it, but that doesn’t make it suck for you any less. If a woman walks up to you and grabs your ass, that’s gross. I’ll agree with you there. I think she should be held accountable the way a man ought to be. But it’s not me preventing that from happening. It’s your fellow dudes who are telling you to “man up”. They’re telling you “If you’re a real man, you should love the attention!” They’re telling you “I’d love to be catcalled by a woman because I’m a real man, what’s wrong with you?”
But that’s all to do with men and their perception of masculinity versus femininity. It’s nothing to do with me.
Furthermore your insistence in invoking the “reverse” of my argument – that women are just as “appalling” as men in their behavior – doesn’t hold water. See below for related statistics.
Let’s not forget the $70,000 of taxpayer money recently spent on a campaign to harass men who like to sit on public transport in NYC without crushing their balls.
I saw this. I’m just going to say, if men’s balls were literally that fragile, the human race would have died out hundreds of years ago. And as someone who has packed, I can tell you with certainty it’s possible to find a balance between not crushing your own package, and not sprawling out encroaching on the personal space of the people either side of you, or ensuring that there is no personal space either side of you. Most men just plain don’t want to, because they have this idea that their comfort is more important than anyone else’s. I’m not buying.
Society just doesn’t see the harassment of men
When men get told as children not to walk late at night alone, to dress conservatively, to watch their drinks lest they be spiked – and they get told this as a matter of fact, you have to protect yourself LIFE LESSON, then you can tell me about the “harassment of men”. Until then, I think I’m going to save my sympathy for the people who actually deserve it.
Can you imagine the outcry from feminists if a woman was arrested for sitting with wide hips? They’d practically burn the city to the ground.
Straw man argument again, but I’ll bite. The difference between “sitting with wide hips” and “sitting with legs sprawled every which way” – the one with the legs has a choice about how far apart they decide to spread those legs. The one with the hips has zero choice, in that particular moment, about how wide her hips happen to be.
Engage brain, shift legs a little closer together. No one’s asking you to crush your giblets. We’re asking you to remember you’re not the only person on the
planet subway. We’re especially keen for you to remember this when your legs akimbo pose is directly responsible for people having to stand when, but for your decision to sit with your legs as far apart as possible, there would be seats available for them.
In other words, calling out people who deliberately push up into others personal space is a world away from fat shaming people.
You are defining women as victims and men as oppressors simply because some women choose to use a female only gym.
No, I’m defining them that way because that is the way society currently works.
Here are some statistics on domestic violence – note the victim ratio. 85% of victims are women, and only 15% of men. Here is a study which states, and I quote, “About 99% of the intimate partner violence against females in 2008 was committed by male offenders. About 83% of the intimate partner violence against males was committed by female offenders in 2008”. That quote is taken from page 2, if you’re wondering. And here are some statistics about rape, again illustrating the disproportionate weighting of the numbers towards women as victim and men as perpetrator. I didn’t just pull that out of thin air. These are the facts.
Recently we have seen mixed sex gyms and even bicycle shops actually banning men during certain times. Only men. No other demographic gets banned.
Like I said earlier, if you don’t like the fact that women feel like they have to protect themselves from their oppressors, go clean up your trash.
And then there was the recent banning of white men from a University of London meeting on cultural and gender diversity. They were literally prevented from getting in at the door. You just couldn’t make it up!
And if you don’t like the fact that people of color feel like they have to protect themselves from their oppressors, go clean up your trash.
It’s like all the civil rights movements of the last two hundred years never happened.
You’re kidding, right? You’re comparing the civil rights movement – the movement to give black people the basic human rights that white people were deliberately denying them – to a bunch of white dudes not being allowed into a meeting? Get out of here.
You’re comparing the civil rights movement – the movement to stop black people being treated like second class citizens – to a bunch of dudes being told that for an hour, a couple of times a week, the whole world didn’t revolve around them? Get out of here.
Defining men/ white men as oppressors or savages who act ‘appallingly’ is a quick and easy way to justify segregation. And it is the same excuse used to justify segregation of blacks and jews in the past.
Once again, I’ll say. If you don’t like being painted that way, do something about it. Pick up your own trash. Comparing me to Hitler – which is exactly what you did here, bringing up “segregation of the Jews in the past” – is so far from okay that I can’t even. I’m writing an opinion blog which is little more than a cry for people to act right. I’m not murdering millions of people.
Oh hey. Dudes are assaulting women, stalking them, and shooting up the place all the time because girls rejected them. So instead of whining about how people perceive your gender, take out your trash.
I’ve used the phrase “pick up your trash” and iterations thereof several times, so let me just pause to explain further what I mean. You don’t like the status quo, that much is clear. Neither do I. The status quo sees me as a second class citizen who literally lives in fear of my life every time I walk alone after dark. I’m sure you personally are not responsible for that, but you have a chance here to speak up. When you see or hear of fellow dudes doing the stuff you’re so upset about being accused of, stop them. Call them out. Do something about it.
The women in your life would love to fight this alone but they can’t, because people like you are derailing their dialogues with one breath, and painting them as irrational shrieking harpies with the next. At some point, people like you are going to have to step up and be the change you want to see in the world.
I am combating the status quo we both hate by writing this blog, and calling out sexism and misogyny in my everyday life. What are you doing?
Women’s gyms are perfectly innocuous in a free market, and they don’t necessarily have to ‘mean’ anything political. I’m sure the women who use them have many different reasons for doing so.
That’s nice for them. I don’t care. I was talking about one reason.
Trying to exploit a women’s gym to promote some kind of political agenda or social narrative which demonises men is exploitative of those women, and unfair to men.
I finally understand what a friend of mine meant when she said that the tears of misunderstood men were the tastiest.